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Nov 8, 2012
11/12
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the election triggered 31 million tweets. president obama's tweet that read 4 more years was retweeted 700,000 times. president obama tweeted saying we are all in this together, that is how we campaigned and that is who we are. thank you. >>> supporters of gay marriage is celebrating today. measures legalizing same-sex marriage passed in maine and maryland. the 7th and 8th straits to allow. washington state could follow when all the ballots are counted. it is the first time they won at the polls. >>> two measures legalling marijuana passed in colorado and washington. legalizing marijuana passed in colorado and washington. experts say implementation remains uncertain because the measures directly contradict federal law. >>> measure to legalize medical marijuana dispensary was defeated. 62% voted no. >>> a transportation sales tax measure is too close to call. 65.5% approved measure b-1. that is shy of the 66.6 needed to pass. there are still a few ballots left to count here. measure b-1 would raise tax to 9 cents. >>> californ
the election triggered 31 million tweets. president obama's tweet that read 4 more years was retweeted 700,000 times. president obama tweeted saying we are all in this together, that is how we campaigned and that is who we are. thank you. >>> supporters of gay marriage is celebrating today. measures legalizing same-sex marriage passed in maine and maryland. the 7th and 8th straits to allow. washington state could follow when all the ballots are counted. it is the first time they won at...
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Nov 8, 2012
11/12
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www.ktvu.com has complete election results for the bay area. look on the right side of the home page. >>> 5 years ago the oil spill killed birds and sea life around the bay. ktvu's health and science editor john fowler investigates the lessons learned and what still needs to be done. >> reporter: on a foggy morning, the harbor pilot plowed into the bay bridge, spilling 53,000 gallons of fuel oil. critics say the government response was slow. >> it was a minor spill but they allowed it to get away. >> reporter: the oil fouled shorelines in and out of the bay. 6,000 birds died. lack of data kept them from knowing the full extent of damage. >> not a lot of research so we don't know how well it was covered. >> reporter: we toured the area today for a first hand look. >> reporter: since the spill they have made changes. ships can't leave without less than a half mile visibility and oil spill notification is somewhat improved. >> i don't think that we are prepared to respond quickly enough. >> reporter: 5 years ago the port finally called in fishing
www.ktvu.com has complete election results for the bay area. look on the right side of the home page. >>> 5 years ago the oil spill killed birds and sea life around the bay. ktvu's health and science editor john fowler investigates the lessons learned and what still needs to be done. >> reporter: on a foggy morning, the harbor pilot plowed into the bay bridge, spilling 53,000 gallons of fuel oil. critics say the government response was slow. >> it was a minor spill but they...
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Nov 12, 2012
11/12
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, with his re-election, is dead? >> no. as a physician i can tell you that the reason -- we're not opposed to the president's health care law because of the election, we're opposed because it is bad policy and bad for the patients across this land. we actually must get a handle on this spending in this country and in order to do that, it has to be through medicare and medicaid reform an social security reform, all three programs under current law are destined for fewer. we need fundamental reforms to save and strengthen and secure the programs for this generation and, future generations, that is what really -- >> the election, yes, you still have the majority in the house but you lost the election on the presidential level, and you will not kill obamacare for the next four years. >> what at the election said is that the american people don't want unified government here in washington. they want divided government which means we have to get together and solve these remarkable challenges that we have, but they have to
, with his re-election, is dead? >> no. as a physician i can tell you that the reason -- we're not opposed to the president's health care law because of the election, we're opposed because it is bad policy and bad for the patients across this land. we actually must get a handle on this spending in this country and in order to do that, it has to be through medicare and medicaid reform an social security reform, all three programs under current law are destined for fewer. we need...
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Nov 12, 2012
11/12
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FOXNEWSW
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, his re-election is dead? >> no. as a physician i can tell you the reason -- we're not opposed to the president's healthcare law because of the election. we're opposed because it's bad policy an bad for patients across this land. we absolutely must get a handle on the spending in this country. to do that, these be through medicare and medicaid reform and social security reform. all three of those programs under current law are destined for failure. we need fundamental reform to save and strengthen and secure the programs for generation and the future generations. that's what real solutions look like. >> chris: you lost the election. i guess you still have the majority in the house, but you lost the election on the presidential level. you are not going to kill obamacare for the next four years. >> the election said the american people don't want unified government in washington. they want divided government. which means we have to get together and the remarkable channels that we have. they have to beed with rea
, his re-election is dead? >> no. as a physician i can tell you the reason -- we're not opposed to the president's healthcare law because of the election. we're opposed because it's bad policy an bad for patients across this land. we absolutely must get a handle on the spending in this country. to do that, these be through medicare and medicaid reform and social security reform. all three of those programs under current law are destined for failure. we need fundamental reform to save and...
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Nov 8, 2012
11/12
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KRON
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pam banff if www.kron4.com for the latest election coverage. >>pam: www.kron4.com for the latest stay with us for continued election coverage. >>jacqueline: t-shirts yesterday and now, jeans today. there is rain to the north and notice the cloud pattern is spotty not very organized. for tomorrow and wednesday and also this indicates on stable patterns. near the coast. if that is exactly what we have with-on stabl and unstabe... air patterns. the chance for storms will remain with us tomorrow and friday but drier weather on tap for the weekend. we will talk to what the weekend, coming up. >>pam: developing news in the east bay an emergency meeting of trussing the violent crime in the oakland hills. reggie kumar joins us live. reggie? >>pam: reggie? >> this is that the presbyterian church where this home one disassociation every person the neighborhood homeowners' association this is exactly the same knee or heard premier jean qua. jean quan this the same neighborhood were mixed. jean quan is living. some of these neighbors are terrified. this is
pam banff if www.kron4.com for the latest election coverage. >>pam: www.kron4.com for the latest stay with us for continued election coverage. >>jacqueline: t-shirts yesterday and now, jeans today. there is rain to the north and notice the cloud pattern is spotty not very organized. for tomorrow and wednesday and also this indicates on stable patterns. near the coast. if that is exactly what we have with-on stabl and unstabe... air patterns. the chance for storms will remain with us...
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Nov 9, 2012
11/12
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FOXNEWS
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we have had an election. before this, everyone knew everyone, when they went do the debt limit talks, everyone was holding their cards back approximate it was about how can you play this best, knowing the election is coming. it's over. everyone's waiting to figure out what is going to be the negotiating position. these guys need some time sniff each other out so they can get down to the nitty-gritty. the longer he's gone, the harder it will be. >> greta: would you go, michael? >> i forgot, you are trying to understand why he's going, he doesn't mind if it goes into next year, a lotted of democrats believe the president has more leverage if we get into next year, have you a more democratic senate and the tax cuts -- he wants some of the tax cuts to expire, the high-income tax cuts, he doesn't mind that. >> greta: let me ask. would you go, if you were president? >> absolutely not. >> no. >> greta: would you go? >> i don't think it's a big deal. sure, i would let the staff take care of it and come in. i think i
we have had an election. before this, everyone knew everyone, when they went do the debt limit talks, everyone was holding their cards back approximate it was about how can you play this best, knowing the election is coming. it's over. everyone's waiting to figure out what is going to be the negotiating position. these guys need some time sniff each other out so they can get down to the nitty-gritty. the longer he's gone, the harder it will be. >> greta: would you go, michael? >> i...
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Nov 16, 2012
11/12
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FBC
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president obama kill the pipeline the lease until after the election. can union workers convince him to start laying the pipe? will be his hostilities resulted in a wider war? we use this board to compare car insurance rates side by side so you get the same coverage, often for less. that's one smart board. what else does it do, reverse gravity? [ laughs ] [ laughs ] [ whooshing ] tell me about it. why am i not going anywhere? you don't believe hard enough. a smarter way to shop around. now that's progressive. call or click today. [ grunting ] lou: with israel may want to ground operation against the gaza strip after palestinians fired 200 rockets into israel. three israelis have been killed. troops and tanks are moving toward the border. the government called up 30,000 reservists the escalation comes one day after the missile strike killed palestinians including the top military commander of hamas. the white hoe blames the loss for the explosion of violence after what has been a difficult truce. doing the me now is katie mcfarlane from nixon, ford nixon
president obama kill the pipeline the lease until after the election. can union workers convince him to start laying the pipe? will be his hostilities resulted in a wider war? we use this board to compare car insurance rates side by side so you get the same coverage, often for less. that's one smart board. what else does it do, reverse gravity? [ laughs ] [ laughs ] [ whooshing ] tell me about it. why am i not going anywhere? you don't believe hard enough. a smarter way to shop around. now...
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Nov 16, 2012
11/12
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FBC
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president obama kill the pipeline the lease until after the election. can union workers convince him to start laying the pipe? will be his hostilities resulted in a wider war? k.t. mcfarland joins me next. [ male announcer ] this is the age of knowing what you're made of. why let erectile dysfunction get in your way? talk to your doctor abt viagra. ask if your heart is healthy enough for sex. do not take viagra if you take nitrates for chest pain; it may cause an unsafe drop in blood pressure. side effects include headache, flushing, upset stomach, and abnormal vision. to avoid long-term injury, seek immediate medical help for an erection lasting more than four hours. stop taking viagra and call your doctor right away if you experience a sudden decrease or loss in vision or hearing. this is the age of taking action. viagra. talk to your doctor. you walk into a conventional mattress store, it's really not about you. we have so much technology in our store to really show the customers what's going on with their bodies. you can see a little more pressure i
president obama kill the pipeline the lease until after the election. can union workers convince him to start laying the pipe? will be his hostilities resulted in a wider war? k.t. mcfarland joins me next. [ male announcer ] this is the age of knowing what you're made of. why let erectile dysfunction get in your way? talk to your doctor abt viagra. ask if your heart is healthy enough for sex. do not take viagra if you take nitrates for chest pain; it may cause an unsafe drop in blood pressure....
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Nov 14, 2012
11/12
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FBC
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more than the democrats because of what midterm election only two years away. they will be seen more than the democrats. that is one of the reasons we feel a deal will be reached. not well received by our clients, not well-received by a lot of folks. if you look at what president obama did with health care and the conviction and jamming it through, with a hard time seeing the increase on the wealthy will not be on the agenda number one if he is reelected. cheryl: thank you very much, appreciate it. dennis: with a guest coming up who says the white house leaving him out on purpose. cheryl: and europe getting hit by the biggest protest yet. all of it over budget cuts. dennis: they just don't get it. and as we do every day at this time, a look at oil. i've been a superintendent for 30 some years at many different park service units across the united states. the only timi've ever had a break is when i was on maternity leave. i have retired from doing this one thing that i loved. now, i'm going to be able to have the time to explore something different. it's like an
more than the democrats because of what midterm election only two years away. they will be seen more than the democrats. that is one of the reasons we feel a deal will be reached. not well received by our clients, not well-received by a lot of folks. if you look at what president obama did with health care and the conviction and jamming it through, with a hard time seeing the increase on the wealthy will not be on the agenda number one if he is reelected. cheryl: thank you very much, appreciate...
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Nov 12, 2012
11/12
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FOXNEWS
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was on the friday before the election. that is when they were able to formally conclude no crimes were committed. now also classified documents were found on her computer but officials say there was no indication that petraeus was the source. director of national intelligence james clapper is said to have learned about the t on election day and asked the general to resign on thursday. the general went to the white house friday and the president accepted the resignation. senate intelligence committee chair dianne feinstein said the news was like a lightning bolt. top former aide to petraeus said the general is devastated. a former spokesman for petraeus said the jep's wife of 38 years is furious. white house officials insist they were first told of the investigation wednesday. the president thursday. but three well-placed intelligence sources say john brennan, the president's chief counterterrorism advisor was aware of the affair as early as summer of 2011. something his spokesman denies. now petraeus was scheduled to testi
was on the friday before the election. that is when they were able to formally conclude no crimes were committed. now also classified documents were found on her computer but officials say there was no indication that petraeus was the source. director of national intelligence james clapper is said to have learned about the t on election day and asked the general to resign on thursday. the general went to the white house friday and the president accepted the resignation. senate intelligence...
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Nov 15, 2012
11/12
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FOXNEWS
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get behind someone and win an election. this infighting is no good for me. >> greg: i kind of disagree. this is called a hate fact. it's a fact that people hate. this is how obama won. however, you do have to go after every vote. but you have to play the game they do. that is what the argument is about. even loves santa claus on christmas morning but no one wants the credit card in january. until that bill is due, which will probably come in mandarin the cool guy will win. it was a contest between two personalities. the generous cool guy who doesn't have the bill and the stingy white stiff, that is mitt. that is what it was. >> andrea: huntsman speaks mandarin chinese. he could translate the bill. >> eric: you agree with romney at the end of the statement, right? am i getting that? >> bob: you agree with that, you are talking about every social security and medicare recipient, on the dole and freeloaders. >> greg: i'm talking about appealing to constituencies, young people, they are now on their parents' plan. that is what
get behind someone and win an election. this infighting is no good for me. >> greg: i kind of disagree. this is called a hate fact. it's a fact that people hate. this is how obama won. however, you do have to go after every vote. but you have to play the game they do. that is what the argument is about. even loves santa claus on christmas morning but no one wants the credit card in january. until that bill is due, which will probably come in mandarin the cool guy will win. it was a...
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Nov 12, 2012
11/12
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FOXNEWS
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two days after the election. and a week before he was to testify on capitol hill, in closed door intelligence briefings about benghazi. he no longer plans to testify. there are concerns that broadwell may have revealed secret information about the benghazi investigation that she gleaned from her relationship with petraeus. >> i don't know if a lot of you heard this, but the c.i.a. annex had actually take an couple of libyan militia members prisoner and they think that the attack on consulate was an effort to try to get the prisoners back. this is still being vetted. >> well-placed washington source and two security contractors in benghazi tell fox the libyan militia men held at the c.i.a. annex may be a possible motivating factor for the attack. the c.i.a. denies it had prisoners. the c.i.a. has not had detention authority since january 2009 when the executive order 14391 was issued. any suggestion that the agency is in the detention business is uninformed and baseless. >> the resignation comes at a time when the
two days after the election. and a week before he was to testify on capitol hill, in closed door intelligence briefings about benghazi. he no longer plans to testify. there are concerns that broadwell may have revealed secret information about the benghazi investigation that she gleaned from her relationship with petraeus. >> i don't know if a lot of you heard this, but the c.i.a. annex had actually take an couple of libyan militia members prisoner and they think that the attack on...
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Nov 12, 2012
11/12
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KTVU
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election workers say there are 3,000 provisional ballots to count. >>> we're hearing that some people who registered to vote at dmv offices found themselves not able to vote. the federal motor voter law enacted in 1995 requires the dmv to offer people the ability to vote. >>> a memorial will be scheduled held for david beanie will be sold -- will be held saturday. a memorial ceremony was held last week for strobel at the airport. >> that wreath was laid by president obama at the tomb of the unknowns. he size america will never forget the sacrifices made by veterans or interest family -- or their families. the president praised the 9/11 soldiers. >>> the mission solano shelter is dedicating a flagpole as part of its tribute to homeless victims. one/fifth are homeless victims. a fly over capped off the dedication ceremony. almost 2,000 people showed up for yesterday's event. the memorial features granite slab, each representing a branch of the military. names of veterans, some who made the ultimate sacrifice are engraved. they are still taking engraving orders. we have more coverage on
election workers say there are 3,000 provisional ballots to count. >>> we're hearing that some people who registered to vote at dmv offices found themselves not able to vote. the federal motor voter law enacted in 1995 requires the dmv to offer people the ability to vote. >>> a memorial will be scheduled held for david beanie will be sold -- will be held saturday. a memorial ceremony was held last week for strobel at the airport. >> that wreath was laid by president...
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Nov 13, 2012
11/12
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CNNW
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but the timing of when the scandal broke right after election day and right before petraeus was scheduled to testify in the attack on the u.s. consulate in benghazi, libya, that certainly has a lot of people asking a lot of questions, understandably. the other angle to the story is an age-old tale of an affair between a married, powerful, highly respected man in washington and a younger woman. in this case, the woman who literally wrote the book on the general, paula broadwell. the two met when she was a graduate student at harvard. she later travelled to afghanistan, interviewed petraeus, sometimes going running with him. interviews that led to the book "all in the education of general david petraeus." the revelation about the affair is bringing new interest in all the interviews broadwell did to promote the book and what she said about petraeus at that time. take a look. >> he at the end of the day is a human, and is challenged by the burdens of command and has mastered wearing the mask of command, if you will. so he has this mask of command, you think he's really confident, but i got t
but the timing of when the scandal broke right after election day and right before petraeus was scheduled to testify in the attack on the u.s. consulate in benghazi, libya, that certainly has a lot of people asking a lot of questions, understandably. the other angle to the story is an age-old tale of an affair between a married, powerful, highly respected man in washington and a younger woman. in this case, the woman who literally wrote the book on the general, paula broadwell. the two met when...
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Nov 13, 2012
11/12
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CNN
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can you believe the presidential election was a week ago? one week ago? well, republicans aren't exactly bragging about what happened a week ago today, but somewhat overlooked in their second straight presidential election loss is a surge in gop governors. listen to this, once all of the wincers take office, 30 of the 50 states will have republican chief executives, the most in 12 years. they'll be meeting tomorrow in las vegas, and cnn's wolf blitzer will join me to talk about the state of the states and the state of the gop. hey, wolf, great to see you. i want you to watch the screen here. because louisiana's bobby jindal is taking over the leadership of the republican governor's association, you know that. he's bringing some tough love to the party. listen to what he told politico. quote, we cannot be, we must not be the party that simply protects the rich so they get to keep their toys. the reality is, we have to be a party of solutions and not just bumper sticker slogans. he called on republicans to stop being the stupid party. as my friend soledad l
can you believe the presidential election was a week ago? one week ago? well, republicans aren't exactly bragging about what happened a week ago today, but somewhat overlooked in their second straight presidential election loss is a surge in gop governors. listen to this, once all of the wincers take office, 30 of the 50 states will have republican chief executives, the most in 12 years. they'll be meeting tomorrow in las vegas, and cnn's wolf blitzer will join me to talk about the state of the...
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Nov 15, 2012
11/12
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. >>> so much for putting the election behind us. as president obama publicly ponders what kind of help mitt romney could offer his team going forward, romney unloads to donors and why he thinks he lost. >>> and if one presidential rival isn't enough, the president butts heads with his 2008 opponent. delivering a tough message to senator mccain over congressional criticism for u.n. ambassador susan rice. >>> also, this morning, violence grows as israel and hamas look to be on the brink of war. we'll have the latest report on the ground. good morning from washington. it's thursday, november 15th 2012. this is "the daly rundown." i'm chuck todd. let's get first to my first reads. president obama wanted to spend his first post election press conference showing he was ready to reach across the aisle. instead, he found himself on the receiving end of criticisms from not one, but two former presidential rivals. the president himself was loose, confident and at times aggressive trying to show he's in charge of these budget investigations. a
. >>> so much for putting the election behind us. as president obama publicly ponders what kind of help mitt romney could offer his team going forward, romney unloads to donors and why he thinks he lost. >>> and if one presidential rival isn't enough, the president butts heads with his 2008 opponent. delivering a tough message to senator mccain over congressional criticism for u.n. ambassador susan rice. >>> also, this morning, violence grows as israel and hamas look...
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Nov 14, 2012
11/12
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CNN
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is about race and economic disparity and i do thank you for your time and good luck, state senator elect. i hope you get your power soon. if you want to help the people affected, go to impactyourworld at cnn.com/impact. you should know that axiron is here. the only underarm treatment for low t. that's right, the one you apply to the underarm. axiron is not for use in women or anyone younger than 18. axiron can transfer to others through direct contact. women, especially those who are or who may become pregnant, and children should avoid contact where axiron is applied as unexpected signs of puberty in children or changes in body hair or increased acne in women may occur. report these signs and symptoms to your doctor if they occur. tell your doctor about all medical conditions and medications. do not use if you have prostate or breast cancer. serious side effects could include increased risk of prostate cancer; worsening prostate symptoms; decreased sperm count; ankle, feet, or body swelling; enlarged or painful breasts; problems breathing while sleeping; and blood clots in the legs. com
is about race and economic disparity and i do thank you for your time and good luck, state senator elect. i hope you get your power soon. if you want to help the people affected, go to impactyourworld at cnn.com/impact. you should know that axiron is here. the only underarm treatment for low t. that's right, the one you apply to the underarm. axiron is not for use in women or anyone younger than 18. axiron can transfer to others through direct contact. women, especially those who are or who may...
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Nov 9, 2012
11/12
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MSNBC
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this was a central question during the election. it was debated over and over again and on tuesday night we found out that the majority of americans agree with my approach. >> the president's remarks came just hours after house speaker john boehner did his own version of setting the table locking up the good silver and cooking up a romneyesque scheme for more revenue without raising rates on upper income taxpayers. >> i don't want to box myself in, i don't want to box anybody else in. it's clear that there are a lot of special interests loopholes in the tax code, both corporate and personal. there are all kinds of deductions. some of which make sense, others don't, and by lowering rates and cleaning up the tax code, we know that we're going to get more economic growth. >> in other words, mitt's legacy lives on, but what about that electoral trouncing of the republican candidate just this past tuesday? >> it's clear that as a political party we've got some work to do, and i think the principles of our party are sound. but how we talk
this was a central question during the election. it was debated over and over again and on tuesday night we found out that the majority of americans agree with my approach. >> the president's remarks came just hours after house speaker john boehner did his own version of setting the table locking up the good silver and cooking up a romneyesque scheme for more revenue without raising rates on upper income taxpayers. >> i don't want to box myself in, i don't want to box anybody else...
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Nov 13, 2012
11/12
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KQEH
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the election of 2012 now is officially in the books. president obama was awarded a win in the state of florida on saturday. that gave him 26 states and the district of columbia, for a total of 332 electoral votes. mitt romney won 24 states, with 206 electoral votes. the president outpolled romney by close to 3.3 million votes. those are some of the day's major stories. now, back to jeff. >> brown: arizona officials today declared that democratic house candidate kyrsten sinema won her race for the ninth district, which means she will be the first openly bisexual person to serve in congress. her election follows some strong messages sent last week by voters in favor of gay couples exchanging vows. ray suarez has our look. >> suarez: for the first time supporters of same-sex marriage won at the ballot box last week. after more than 30 losses. washington state, maryland, and maine became the first states to approve the practice by popular vote. and in minnesota, voters shot down a proposed state constitutional amendment to ban gay marriage.
the election of 2012 now is officially in the books. president obama was awarded a win in the state of florida on saturday. that gave him 26 states and the district of columbia, for a total of 332 electoral votes. mitt romney won 24 states, with 206 electoral votes. the president outpolled romney by close to 3.3 million votes. those are some of the day's major stories. now, back to jeff. >> brown: arizona officials today declared that democratic house candidate kyrsten sinema won her race...
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Nov 8, 2012
11/12
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KRON
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the question of there, and we attribute the sell-off how much to the election. that is up for debate there is talk in europe that the european debt crisis would be an impact in germany. >> there could be a compromise but if we do not have any type of compromise by december 31st, things could get very rocky again. >> your home there are fears of the u.s. falling off a physical let. meantime the market could be hampered by expiry spending cuts and automated tax hikes set to take effect unless a given night it market is able to agree on a solution. some experts feel that things if things-did get rocky it could put us into a recession similar to what we saw and 2008. mower of my interview with jim jelter.. of market watch " tonight at 8:00 p.m.. >>jacqueline: 10-15 cooler right now. 62 degrees in pleasanton as the go towards tomorrow were changes. the satellite and radar showing the increase in high clouds moving into the north bay and a spotty broken cloud pattern associated look at how why did with a couple of days possible. some spotty showers for the next couple
the question of there, and we attribute the sell-off how much to the election. that is up for debate there is talk in europe that the european debt crisis would be an impact in germany. >> there could be a compromise but if we do not have any type of compromise by december 31st, things could get very rocky again. >> your home there are fears of the u.s. falling off a physical let. meantime the market could be hampered by expiry spending cuts and automated tax hikes set to take...
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Nov 13, 2012
11/12
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FOXNEWS
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was that not until right around the election or was that much sooner. megyn: the longstanding fbi policy is for the fbi not to brief congress and the white house in the middle of a criminal probe that does not involve a security threat. there is a question about whether they thought this could be a security threat. or whether they did not think that and when they did alert someone up the chain, who knew what and when. these reports from the "wall street journal" that eric holder knew something in september but the white house claims it was not told until last week. i want to ask you about libya and general petraeus' testimony. he emerged as a central figure when we were trying to figure out who was talking about a video when all the information from the ground was a terror attack. and we didn't know who was saying -- who said anything about a video. then we found out from lawmakers that generous * wa that general. there have been plenty understand stanes where somebody who was no longer serving in government went to testify before a committee, taking a
was that not until right around the election or was that much sooner. megyn: the longstanding fbi policy is for the fbi not to brief congress and the white house in the middle of a criminal probe that does not involve a security threat. there is a question about whether they thought this could be a security threat. or whether they did not think that and when they did alert someone up the chain, who knew what and when. these reports from the "wall street journal" that eric holder knew...